®1999-2000 World PBEM Championship
* * Final * *
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2
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®* * Final * *
Start of Turn
2
<-- To Initial Gangs &
Turn 1 Moves -- To Start of Turn
3 -->
Turn 2
|
Sluggo and Da Boyz 'n da Gang (Pitt Crandlemire) |
From The Viper:
I have some experience with negotiations in Gangsters. In my last game (which included Sluggo, I might add), I negotiated my way into second place. In other words, I negotiated my way into a LOSS. On the other hand, Sluggo was masterful and cunningly steered himself into a win. However, I can claim to have learned a thing or two.First, no one should make a deal that increases the odds of other participant winning by more than it increases their own. Case in point: At the end of that match, Sluggo made a deal that paid himself $200 and paid Ice Pick $1,600. Sounds great for Ice Pick, doesn't it? NOT! The $200 made it 99.7% likely that Sluggo would win on his next move (which he did). The $1,600 did not even change Ice Pick's third place finish! He would have been third without it; and he was third with it! Bad deal.
Second, trades are wonderful for the player who is involved in the majority of them. Of course, if we all jump into the trading game, we'd all expect to be in around 33% of the trades. That's not a majority, of course. Sluggo was in a majority of the trades in my last game. I had the second most -- good for me, eh? NOT!
Third, and as a result, if this is going to be a trading game, everyone had better get in on the act quickly or we'll be handing the title over too easily. However, I think it's a bad idea generally. Sluggo's joints give him a presense all over the map and make it more likely that he'll participate in deals. Or, better yet, Sluggo will simply use others' one-jump joints and laugh all the way to the bank with his half while the cops exact full fare from the other partner.
Before anyone embarks on an ill-advised deal, I suggest the players consider the position of each player in our game.
Take Sluggo: He's working on his patented sneak-up-the-cash strategy. What's he got to show for Turn 1? Both Vamp and Thug are secreted away where they'll earn an average of $700 per move. Meanwhile, the only thing he has left to do with his moves is shuffle public to places where it'll earn him the maximum cash. If he can use your upgraded one-jump joints to do it, why not? He can probably score organized crime payoffs every turn. Combined with his free extortion, he's got the leg up in the exchange. He is also the current cash leader -- even exchanges (even without his extortion position) enhance his chance of winning more than that of the person who trades with him.
How about Ladykiller? Similar to Sluggo, except he doesn't have both Vamp and Thug extorting in relatively safe locales. And he has less cash... So his hopes ride on a one-jump die roll.
How about The Nose? Also similar to Sluggo -- both Vamp and Thug extorting with the police on the other side o' town where they can't threaten him. He's not far behind in the cash and has a huge one-jump potential as long as Sluggo doesn't use all those moves to get the public out of the cup and out of the way...
How about The Viper? Gonna spend his cash, all of it. Doesn't have the vamp set to extort. Needs very optimal rolls to capitalize on his threat (but, sadly, Turn 1 only moved him into the easiest of the Red joints to get to while da Nose' move blocks some Caravan access already and set 'im up to shoot da joint up).
So, who can you afford to give cash to? Sluggo, the cash and extortion leader? The Nose, the major one-jump threat? Hello, McFly! ;-)
Fer Ladykiller, I suggest the maximum you agree to pay Sluggo'd be around $500 fer a SMC hit. Keep in mind that yer goal shouldn't be to keep Sluggo just ahead of you!
But I'll tell Sluggo what I can do -- move the x3 into the Ambassadors' Club and I'll cut you in fer a third -- that's $400. Paid at the beginning of my move -- and youse know I keep me dealz.
But no matter what deals are proposed, I suggest everyone remember that second place is still losing...
From The Nose:
Nice analysis. I hope the game doesn't descend into a lot of deal-making because it would eliminate my strategy-advantage. If I wanted to make so many deals, I'd play Diplomacy.I am waiting for the publics to get out onto the board (away from the Bus Station) before I knock off a Red joint AND I'm hoping someone else will do the job for me. I'd like to beef up my thug, too, before I make the hit.
Notice how nicely the Bus Station protected my rack from first-turn vamps. The Green rack in Brizelli's got vamped just as I predicted.
I COULD have vamped the Green racketeer at Brizelli's but figured the $200 from vamp-extortion was more valuable to me than a fifth racketeer point. Besides if the Green rack is going to snap back and hit a vamp, I wanted it to be the Yellow vamp and not mine.
I COULD have vamped the Yellow racketeer at Astoria House. Usually that's a bad move; with so many doors, it's too easy for the racketeer to snap back and hit the vamp BUT (A) you had other plans for your rack, like buying red joints and (B) your racketeer would be scared to go white-side up with so many cops nearby. I wanted to vamp the Yellow racketeer just because the opportunity was so neat--I wanted to show off. But ah, I need $200 more than I need the extra rack point, and taking a rack point from you would scarcely slow Yellow down.
Sluggo responds:
The Sneaky Slimy Viper wrote:
>I have some experience with negotiations in Gangsters. In my last game
>(which included Sluggo, I might add), I negotiated my way into second
>place. In other words, I negotiated my way into a LOSS.Well, yes, you lost, but your negotiation skills weren't the reason why. You significantly improved your chances at victory by the way you slyly manipulated the other players (me included!) Had one or two more die rolls gone your way, you would have won and I wouldn't even be here now.
And, don't forget, when negotiations and deal-making were first brought up in that game, I questioned their legality. I didn't even know they were allowed! I freely admit that I did the best I could to keep up with you in that area once that game turned into a gang summit but I think you clearly came out with the upper hand with regard to deals (at last, in part, by the sort of sneaky, subtle innuendo you demonstrated in your message here - suggesting that I or Da Nose are the ones to be most feared in an area where *you've* actually demonstrated more mastery...)
>First, no one should make a deal that increases the odds of other
>participant winning by more than it increases their own.True. Then again, it's not always obvious what the effects of a particular deal are going to be. Certainly, some deals are fairly absurd. The example you cited from our previous game where another player honored a deal with me that improved my chances of winning on the next turn from 90% to 97% probably falls into that category. However, you neglected to mention two things. One, that player honestly felt that it wouldn't make that much difference (and he was right as it turned out) and it was important to him to maintain his reputation for honoring deals. *You* might not be that concerned about maintaining your integrity but he was. Second, it's pretty disingenuous of you (and rather a poke in the eye, to boot) to suggest that either Ladykiller or Da Nose are inexperienced or unskilled enough to make a deal that would throw the game like that. Do you really think they're such easy marks?
>if this is going to be a trading game, everyone had
>better get in on the act quickly or we'll be handing the title over too
>easily. However, I think it's a bad idea generally.Oho! You, the inveterate trader in the last game who benefited immensely as a result, are now changing your spots and saying that trading is bad? Better change your name from The Viper to ViPinocchio!
And, to demonstrate my point, you close with this:
>But I'll tell Sluggo what I can do -- move the x3 into the Ambassadors'
>Club and I'll cut you in fer a third -- that's $400. Paid at the beginning
>of my move -- and youse know I keep me dealz.You know, I have to wonder about your sincerity since you make this offer after having spent most of your message saying a) don't trade, b) especially don't trade with Sluggo, and c) don't feel compelled to always honor your deals.
Nonetheless, *I* do believe in trading when it looks like it might be beneficial. Your offer is interesting. If Ladykiller doesn't take me up on my counteroffer to him, I'll be happy to consider your offer with a slight change. Up the split to $500 to me/$700 to you. Deal?
The Viper's response:
>Well, yes, you lost, but your negotiation skills weren't the reason why.
>You significantly improved your chances at victory by the way you slyly
>manipulated the other players (me included!) Had one or two more die rolls
>gone your way, you would have won and I wouldn't even be here now.Ah, yes, poor Sluggo -- manipulated into first place! I feel soooo sorry! ;-)
>And, don't forget, when negotiations and deal-making were first brought up
>in that game, I questioned their legality. I didn't even know they were
>allowed! I freely admit that I did the best I could to keep up with you in
>that area once that game turned into a gang summit but I think you clearly
>came out with the upper hand with regard to deals (at last, in part, by the
>sort of sneaky, subtle innuendo you demonstrated in your message here -
>suggesting that I or Da Nose are the ones to be most feared in an area
>where *you've* actually demonstrated more mastery...)I know Ladykiller has played a full-out negotiation game before (where do you think Ice Pick learned the trade?). I don't know about Da Nose. Such negotiations were fairly uncommon at the WBC...
In any case, it doesn't hurt to point out the gross inequities in any proposed trade.
>>First, no one should make a deal that increases the odds of other
>>participant winning by more than it increases their own.
>
>True. Then again, it's not always obvious what the effects of a particular
>deal are going to be.That's why I'm pointing them out.
>However, you neglected to
>mention two things. One, that player honestly felt that it wouldn't make
>that much difference (and he was right as it turned out) and it was
>important to him to maintain his reputation for honoring deals. *You*
>might not be that concerned about maintaining your integrity but he was.Au contraire, mon Sluggo. I never violated a single one of my deals, as you well know. I simply wouldn't have made such an abysmal deal. I keep the deals I do make.
>Second, it's pretty disingenuous of you (and rather a poke in the eye, to
>boot) to suggest that either Ladykiller or Da Nose are inexperienced or
>unskilled enough to make a deal that would throw the game like that. Do
>you really think they're such easy marks?I trust not, but the certainty that your scheme has been exposed makes me feel a lot more comfortable, even so...
>Oho! You, the inveterate trader in the last game who benefited immensely
>as a result, are now changing your spots and saying that trading is bad?
>Better change your name from The Viper to ViPinocchio!Obviously, you didn't understand the point about "if there's going to be trading, you'd better make sure you get your share." I plan to live by that maxim until its clear that the number of trades will be few and far between...
If you build nuclear missles, so will I -- not that I'd prefer to do so at all, see?
>>But I'll tell Sluggo what I can do -- move the x3 into the Ambassadors'
>>Club and I'll cut you in fer a third -- that's $400. Paid at the beginning
>>of my move -- and youse know I keep me dealz.
>
>You know, I have to wonder about your sincerity since you make this offer
>after having spent most of your message saying a) don't trade, b)
>especially don't trade with Sluggo, and c) don't feel compelled to always
>honor your deals.I offer you a deal that I'm willing to keep. Keep in mind that putting $800 in my pocket (since I'm just going to spend it) has less influence on the eventual victory that that $400 in your pocket. For me, it's just a little security against a bad run of extortion rolls. For you, it's 4% of your victory condition. Even though I figure it's probably still slightly to your advantage, it's not by much -- so I made the offer.
>Nonetheless, *I* do believe in trading when it looks like it might be
>beneficial. Your offer is interesting. If Ladykiller doesn't take me up
>on my counteroffer to him, I'll be happy to consider your offer with a
>slight change. Up the split to $500 to me/$700 to you. Deal?Not a chance. Keep in mind that with Ladykiller moving after you, I would be taking an important raid risk that you don't.
OK, I'll tell you what. If you put the x3 in the Ambassadors' Club AND Ladykiller can be persuaded to keep it there, I'll give you your $500. Otherwise, the original deal, $400, is all I can offer in good conscience (and, frankly, I figure this deal ain't much different than the first, for that matter).
And, not to be left out, Ladykiller takes the last word:
John the Viper wrote:
> If you put the x3 in the Ambassadors' Club AND Ladykiller can be
> persuaded to keep it there, I'll give you your $500. Otherwise, the
> original deal, $400, is all I can offer in good conscience...We iz gangsters - we don't have dem "good" consciences! You guys sure duz talks a lot - kinda a war of words - 8 e-mails! I don't wanna see da publics in Amabassador's Club, since there's a 1/3 chance dat da Nose kin move it inta da Bus Station on his turn dat follows Viper's. He bragged dat dis waz a contibutin' factor ta hiz recent win. I ain't too keen on a player goin' for a red monopoly ta have a whole lotta cash under any circumstances. I also wazn't too happies 'bout Viper vampin' my rack - I was givin' serious considerations ta attackin' Taylor's Machine Shop, and preventin' da Nose from upgradin' da Bus Station to a 3rd level-like. Viper could end up movin' da public from SMC ta Ambassador on hiz own turn, but a deal could stop da Bus from takin' off. I iz playin' 3 big gorillas (Konk?), but I iz most concerned wit Nose, since I iz not sure how he waz able ta win da other contests so doggone fast, or how ta stop him.
Keeps in mind, we only gots a 1/3 chance of movin' da X3 inta SMC, so it may nots matters. It's possible dis may be da only deal like dis, but it depends on what happens. So I iz willin' ta pay Sluggo $500 durin' da purchase phase of my turn (da proper time for trades), and I'll throw in a extra $100 if ya kin move Cop #9 so he's not gonna be able ta raid it - assumin' I kin move him 1 space on my turn.
In my last game we had zero deals for cash and two-almost deals for a joint swap to allow another player access to vamp or attack da leader.Da previous game, which Enforcer iz very familiars wit, we had several deals between Fisherman and me for cash. Fisherman, AKA Da Welcher, did not honors da last deal. Good thing I sent the X1 inta Pussycat Club, since I coulda gotten da X3 in at da time. We also had an intristin' joint trade ta keep Enforcer's gang member alive and protected from a joint guard whilest she waz in da process of tryin' ta annihilate me, if I remembers right. I waz encouragin' a joint trade betwixt her and another player so she could recruit in a joint Fisherman wanted for a purple monopoly.
Sluggo's Move:
After all that negotiation, my rolls make it a moot point. So, being the nice guy that I am, I'll leave the Public where they are and let Ladykiller take his own shot at them. (In the fond hope that he'll leave my Rack alone in return...)
=====
Purchases:
None
Dice:
Blue(4) Green(1) Black(5) Red(6) White(4)
Cop Movement:
- Cop #10 from Subway #1 to North Avenue #5, 6, Riverside Drive #1, 2
(facing #3)
Gang and Public Movement:
- Racketeer from Subway #2 to Pussycat Club
- Thug from Shop 'n' Save to Riverside Drive #3, 2, 1, Huck's Marine
(criminal)
Recruiting:
none
Extortion and Organized Crime:
Thug at Huck's Marine: $500
Vamp at Eastside School: $600
Shootouts:
none
Money:
$1000 + $1100 = $2100
|
Ladykiller and GreenPiece (Mark Love) |
Ladykiller's move:
I don't gots much choice but to enter Pussycat club wit da vamp, ta be able ta turn around and git elsewheres. I wants ya ta spend some o' dat money, but knowin' how 'spensive racks kin be, I'm real inclined ta make a future money deal wit you to helps pay for it.
=====
Purchases:
None
Dice:
Blue(1) Green(4) Black(2) Red(1) White(3)
Cop Movement:
Bribe cops for $100.
Gang and Public Movement:
- Vamp to Pussycat Club, uses her charms to persuade a Boyz rack ta
join da GreenPiece gang (Brown=4, GreenPiece = 6).
- Public X3 ta Broadway #6,5 inta SMC Cartage, flips ta criminal.
- Racketeer ta SW#4/SW6 Loop #9, 10, inta Caravan Club. Spent over
half of doze 21 turns in da last game tryin' ta stop a red monopoly.
I got da roll ta make it ta Taylor's Machine Shop. If Viper had left
my rack alone and not vamped 'im, I woulda gone ta Taylor's wit a 7
rack, ta stop a level 3 in da Bus Station. Don't like da odds wit
only a 6 rack. I could take it down, but I'd likely take 1 loss, and
can't afford a disaster. V iper, hope ya kin git dat vamp inta da Bus
Station. Open ta a deal - want Nose ta have 1 and only 1 move ta be
forced ta move da public outa SMC.
Recruiting:
none
Extortion and Organized Crime:
Thug at Shop N Save: $200
Shootouts:
none
Money:
$500 - $100 bribe + $200 thug extort + $900 public = $1500
|
The Viper and Da Yella Dawgz (John Pack) |
I also admit some surprise that there were no deals proposed especially since it sounded like Ladykiller wanted to make one regarding Da Nose. I'll take the lack of deal making as a good sign to relax the negotiatin'. But it's a pity in other ways -- I'dah been willin' to purchase the SMC Cartage Co. fer $900...
As I look around da board, it struck me that there's only a single one-jump joint dat ain't owned by nobody.
# The Viper purchases the Astoria House fer $600
# The dice are Blue, Green, Red, Black, and White respectively.
3 4 3 6 4
Cop #10 moves from Riverside Drive #2 - #3 - #4 - Central Avenue Bridge #6 (facing #5).
Tired of being overcharged, Public x3 leaves SMC Cartage Co. and walks down Broadway #5 - #4 - #3 - #2 (facing #1).
The Lady in Yella, abondoned by her man, leaves Brizelli's Riverside and moves to Subway #4 to Subway #2 - Westside Drive #2 and into the Pussycat Club. She persuades one o' da Boyz in da Gang to join up with The Viper. (Brown Racketeer to 3; Yella Racketeer to 7)
I hate to admit it, but the Bus Station really is hard to get a vamp too -- unless you're like my wife, Sharee "Jezebel", who purposely buys a joint right across the street. Sadly, Ladykiller's men are out of reach too.
The newly coverted Racketeer rats out Sluggo's operation at Huck's Marine. The Viper leads the Racketeers from the Astoria House - Subway #1 - North Avenue #5 - #6 and into Huck's Marine where they'll shoot it out with Sluggo's boy. It ain't that I wuz aimin' fer Sluggo -- I just happen to need dat there joint 'n I can't have no one puttin' the squeeze on her.
In fact, I don't really like how this move worked out 'cause it will work too much to Da Nose' advantage. However, with these dice, it wuz da best I could come up wit.
The Dawgz (Thug) continues to extort and pulls in $600.
Cash: $600 - $600 (Purchase) + $600 (Extortion) = $600.
# At Huck's Marines: 7 Yella Racketeers (Need 6)
# vs. 1 Brown Thug (Needs 5-6)
# Bodies will be dumped off the pier..
2 1 2 1 3 3 3 5
The traitorous Racketeer dat abandoned Sluggo takes a bullet. No other injuries.
I a way, I'm kinda glad. I don't mind seein' Sluggo set back a bit, but losin' both the Thug and droppin' to 3 Racketeers was more than I wanted. 'Course, I'd 'a been plenty happy if he'd 'a missed too! Don't get me wrong!
Anyway, hopefully he'll abandon the place before we sign the purchase agreement.
|
The Nose and the Southern Syndicate (Mike Anchors) |
Comments: My second poor roll in two turns left me few options, but if these will be the only two poor rolls I get in the game, it was better to get them in the beginning while I was still upgrading the Bus Station. I have been fortunate in that while my opponents discussed doing something about the reputed "Nose threat", they haven't actually done anything. I didn't have to take action to stop the Yellow red monopoly threat; Green did it for me.
I don't have to worry (much) about the x3 public moving into Astoria House, because John has to worry about the two cops at SS1. With so many doors to go through, I would be able to move a cop into the A House. NO ONE SHOULD MOVE THOSE COPS AWAY FROM SW1 unless (1) the x3 Public is moved away or (2) a cop is needed to wipe out a Brown Pussycat joint.
I started a cop at SW6 and marched down the Loop to put an extra guard on Brizelli's. I could have moved cop #3 to Clark 1, but cop #3 is weak; I hoped to draw a more powerful cop. Besides, if the cop is so close to the subway, it could move through the subway to hit my thug. Better to start a new cop.
I could have used the green 6 to hit the Brown vamp in Eastside School but then my racketeer would have been exposed to a major vamp threat from the Pussycat through the subway. I could have used my thug to wipe out Yellow's thug at the School, but thugs are cheaply replaced--it's better to kill vamps. Moreover, I can't afford thug-casualties; I will need my thug in a few turns to wipe out a joint to send the publics back to the cup.
I could have moved BOTH thug and rack to Ambassador Club, wiping out John's joint and perhaps buying the A Club. But there was a heavy risk of casualties from Pussycat vamps and cops popping out of SW3. I was reluctant to take so many casualties so soon in a game where other players are trying to hit me because of my reputation--I have to play conservatively. I want to save my money for the win, not use it to replace gangsters.
So I moved my THUG to the Derber Apartments where the Loop cop can't reach him and he can extort peacefully. $300. Woopee!
As for my vamp, I had a choice of vamping the Green racketeer or the Brown. The vamp could earn only $200 from extortion, so this was an opportune moment to acquire a fifth racketeer.
If I went after the Green racketeer, Mark would lose his third movement option, but that wouldn't be a great loss for him and his vamp was well-placed to recover the movement option immediately. Moreover if I vamped the Green racketeer, the rack could wheel around and hit my vamp, safely, in a building the cops couldn't reach. Nasty. And Green's rack would roll 5 dice!
OTH Brown's rack would be reduced to strength 2. Pitt couldn't regain the lost movement right away. He wouldn't swing around and hit my vamp because (1) his rack would have a strength of only 2 ; (2) there would be two other vamp-targets besides mine and I am in last place; (3) Cop #5 is aimed at Pussycat; and (4) a cop could jump out of SW2. Furthermore the weak Brown rack left in Pussycat would be in danger of EXTINCTION. Finally (5) Pitt is the current gameleader. Oh yes, and (6) the Pussycat Club, compared to the Caravan, is a better springboard for future vamp-adventures since it has three doors. My prediction is that Pitt will use his one move to buy the Pussycat Club and get the hell away from the women; he should head for the golf course. So (7) IT'S NICE TO LEAVE GREEN AN EXTRA MOVEMENT OPTION WITH WHICH TO MOVE THE X3 PUBLIC AWAY FROM ASTORIA HOUSE (and toward Brizelli's) BEFORE YELLOW CAN MAKE SOME SERIOUS MONEY.
Hence, my vamp swished over to the Pussycat Club to steal a Brown racketeer. Now does everyone understand why I moved this way?
Turn 2
======
Sluggo and Da Boyz 'n da Gang (Pitt Crandlemire; Brown)
-------------------------------------------------------
Joints (3): Greenwood Park ($200x2)
Franklin Hostel ($200x1)
Lou's Diner ($100x1)
Racketeer (2): Pussycat Club
Thug (1): Huck's Marine (Criminal)
Vamp (1): Eastside School (Criminal)
Turn: Moved
Bribes: 0
Cash: $2,100
Ladykiller and GreenPiece (Mark Love; Green)
--------------------------------------------
Joints (3): Brizelli's Riverside ($300x2)
Brzkowski's Imports ($400x1)
SMC Cartage Co. ($300x1)
Racketeer (6): Caravan Club
Thug (1): Shop 'n' Save (Criminal)
Vamp (1): Pussycat Club
Turn: Moved
Bribes: 1
Cash: $1,500
The Viper and da Yella Dawgz (John Pack; Yellow)
------------------------------------------------
Joints (4): Ambassadors' Club ($400x1)
Martin & Son Carriage Repair ($600x1)
Palace Chophouse ($100x1)
Astoria House ($600x1)
Racketeer (6): Huck's Marine (Criminal)
Thug (1): Eastside School (Criminal)
Vamp (1): Pussycat Club
Turn: Moved
Bribes: 0
Cash: $600
The Nose and the Southern Syndicate (Mike Anchors; Red)
-------------------------------------------------------
Joints (3): Downtown Bus Station ($300x3)
Strohm & Sons Auto Repair ($300x1)
Taylor's Machine Shop ($300x1)
Racketeer (5): Downtown Bus Station
Thug (3): Derber Apartments (Criminal)
Vamp (1): Pussycat Club
Turn: Moved
Bribes: 0
Cash: $700
Public
------
Public x1: In the Cup
Public x1: In the Cup
Public x2: In the Cup
Public x3: Broadway #2 (facing #1)
Cops
----
Cop #2: In the Cup
Cop #3: Clark Street #7 (facing #6)
Cop #4: The Loop #4 (facing #3)
Cop #5: Subway #1 (facing North Avenue #4)
Cop #6: In the Cup
Cop #7: In the Cup
Cop #8: In the Cup
Cop #9: Subway #1 (facing Broadway #1)
Cop #10: Central Avenue Bridge #6 (facing #5)
Crimes in Progress: 6
Cops on Patrol: 5
Bribes
------
9 remaining to be drawn
1 held by Ladykiller
|
The Viper and Da Yella Dawgz (John Pack) |